Posted by Nathan on 9:38:45 9/12/2001 from 193.248.138.71:
How monster can do THAT ???

Posted by Imperial Arch Angel on 19:08:14 9/12/2001 from 156.63.21.86:
I don't know how a person could commit such a heinous crime against each and every one of us Americans. I say we should rally against whoever did it, and bomb them out of the ocean.

Posted by Nick on 20:39:49 9/12/2001 from 172.190.167.208:
Rally is the word, and the whole civilised world's with you, America.

Posted by donut_magic on 13:45:51 9/14/2001 from 66.21.176.33:
personally, i don't think that the "nuke 'em till they glow" approach is appropriate here. what if it was osama bin laden and a secret society or something, bombing afghanistan or iraq won't accomplish anything if those countries weren't involved. why kill more innocent people?? yes, i know, some people were celebrating in the streets but, if we bombed the hell out of them, what would that do?? they'd all be dead.

Posted by Guildwick on 19:18:33 9/12/2001 from 195.36.218.35:
i'm writing from France. And I just wanna say I really feel sorry for what happened in New York and Washington, and Pittsburgh. I know a lot of people chatting on this web site were living there. So I just wanted to know if every one is all right, and I wanted to say that a lot of people in Europe support you guys.

Posted by Meeks on 20:41:26 9/12/2001 from 198.133.87.108:
Thanks for all the concern guys.

Hopefully all our governments can come up with the best course of actions that will save the most lives. Those responsible have to be eliminated, but I'm praying that nobody goes too far with this. I'd hate to see any more innocents killed. If anyone has something else to say on the matter, let me know. I know of a couple forums where you can post your feelings, your prayers, and your other thoughts on the matter.

Posted by donut_magic on 13:50:13 9/14/2001 from 66.21.176.33:
i agree meeks. why jump to conclusions?? it makes me sick that arab-americans are being terrorized and mistreated. an arab-american was even shot in texas.

Posted by Meeks on 19:40:54 9/14/2001 from 128.110.151.139:
We had an Arab-American professer here at school who refuses to return to the university until this whole thing is over. How can anyone show such blatant ignorance and intolerance.

And what makes the people that shot the guy in Texas better than the terrorists? Nothing. It just makes me sad.

Posted by Nick on 20:37:44 9/12/2001 from 172.190.167.208:
Yeah. As a Brit, I want to say that nearly all of Britain was glued to the tv in horror Tuesday evening. I'm sure it's not an overstatement to say that I, we, Europe, thinks of America with distinct familiarity and love, so we were and are all deeply shocked and moved at what we've seen and heard, and our hearts are with everyone involved.

Posted by Kate on 20:18:54 9/12/2001 from 24.91.157.13:
Hi Guildwick, thank you for your concern, it's nice to come online and see so many people concerned about us (from both this site and another message board i like to post on). Luckily I live far enough away that I wasn't affected at all, and I didn't know anybody who was involved in the tragedy. My heart goes out to any other Americans on the site, particularly ones living in or around New York, or those who have loved ones involved. Looks like the world has got our back, so we'll get through this.

Posted by randa on 21:04:05 9/14/2001 from 64.243.212.232:
Do any of you have family or friends who were affected by the acts of terroism? I hope everyone is surviving. I'm just so stressed that I can't do anything to prevent hate. Spreading more terror is not the answer. What do most people in England think that the U.S. should do to "retaliate"? I hope the English and other Europeans do not agree with the "eye for an eye" sentiment that I can sense here, but wish that the U.S. would try to understand why people would hate us so much to do something like that and try to prevent it. Well, that's my rant. I hope that some people out there agree.

Posted by Nick on 22:42:34 9/14/2001 from 172.191.38.130:
I know no-one directly involved, and I thank the Gods that I don't have to go through the trauma that I would go through if I did. Although, I think just by knowing a few Americans well (as I do), I do know people directly involved. Everyone who was shocked or feels the remotest bit of sympathy *is* involved.

The UK's government isn't mindless. Nor is the US' government. There're thousands if not millions of Brits and Americans who'll agree, heavy retalliation just isn't the answer. I'm one of them. I don't believe any western government will get out the nukes, or compromise over killing innocent people, after what has happened. I don't believe the public would stand for it if they did.

But I do think that retaliation is inevitable. There won't be many pacifists in the world's governments right now.

I don't have the answer.

Posted by isabel on 23:23:06 9/14/2001 from 64.12.104.177:
So you think we should just appease them like we've been doing the last ten years? dude, spreading the love to these people obviously hasnt worked. we MUST get rid of terrorism. You are living in a dream world if you think we can sit them down and have a heart-to-heart talk about our differences, and resolve them peacefully. These are people who are willing to kill THEMSELVES just to make a statement against us. Their hatred is too powerful, too crazy. The only way to eliminate terrorism is to eliminate the terrorists. Which means war. Personally, I'm ready to back our nation in whichever direction it takes. Whether they choose peace or war, I'm with them in full force. The last thing the U.S. needs right now is more division. Ever since the election, we've been significantly divided (republicans and democrats) and if one good thing has come out of this horrible event, it's that Americans are being unified, forgetting all their differences and coming together for one common cause. Terrorism must end. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

Posted by Meeks on 0:24:08 9/15/2001 from 198.133.87.106:
Hmmm... My personal stand on the thing is that we should try to stay out of an all-out war, but we should try to take on the terrorists. Let me tell you, there have been Africans who have been suffering from terrorism much longer than the US. However, they aren't nearly the world power that the US is. These terrorists have simply been going at it too long. I think that we need to retaliate, not in a ground war, but in specialist teams, targetted air raids, and similar methods. Take out the terrorists and those who help and protect the terrorists. There's a lot of cleaning up the world needs to do, but civilians shouldn't be a part of it.

I personally believe that the governments are by far the best informed and best equipped to deal with the problem though. I'm behind the government 100%. Everyone wants peace, but war may be the only way to attain it in the long-term.

Posted by Nick on 10:57:56 9/15/2001 from 172.191.18.253:
isabel, I don't mean to direct this at you, but:

: if one good thing has come out of
: this horrible event, it's that Americans are being unified
: forgetting all their differences and coming together for
: one common cause. Terrorism must end. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

If one good thing has come out of this horrible event, it will be that the world, with all its cultures and governments and religions, is being unified. We are forgetting all our differences and coming together for one common cause. America has got to wake up to the fact that it isn't the single source of Good and Justice in the world. In the same sense, nor can it win such a huge war by itself. Terrorism must end, but America needs all the help it can get, and it should embrace the goodwill it's getting from the rest of the world with both arms. So now is not the time for being a lone wolf and macho.

Posted by Meeks on 16:16:26 9/15/2001 from 128.110.27.38:
I agree with Nick. This is the entire *free world* against terrorism. The fact that they hit America instead of England, France, etc. is merely luck. Like Article 5 of NATO says, "An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all NATO countries."

Posted by isabel on 18:04:39 9/15/2001 from 64.12.104.188:
what the hell is wrong with you? are you like anti-patriotism? or one of those UN freaks who thinks we should do away with countries all together and create one massive world nation? i totally agree that we should unite with all our allies to rid the world of terrorism, but we should never forget our unique american heritige and independence. And I don't know...maybe you never had a history class, or maybe you dont listen to any news, or maybe you're Anti-American, or maybe just an all-around idiot, but the fact is, america IS the strongest nation in the world. The fact that these terrorists have attacked America, and America alone, proves it!

I was listening to a news report on CNN yesterday, and it said that the reason the Palestinians are attacking America is because they believe that they should rule the world, since they've been around for thousands and thousands of years, much longer than our puny 200 year history. They believe it is their duty to Islam to convert the whole world, and rule it. And basically, they think that America is the only thing in their way from world-domination. If anyone has the right to be macho, it's us.

Posted by Nick on 18:49:46 9/15/2001 from 172.190.167.240:
isabel, as a matter of fact, yes, I *am* anti-patriotism. I am anti-patriotic, basically, because patriotism means celebrating the borders between us. Patriotism leads to nationalism leads to racism.

I am not anti-heritage; I'm British. I love my country's heritage. I am *certainly not* anti-American. There's no reason I should be. America is unique in celebrating its independence and freedom, and in Britain, we literally take both for granted. Your country is very special for remembering such vital things. I *do* believe that if we were all part of one big global nation, we would forget things like that which we currently, and necessarily, treasure.

I never said don't wave your flag. My wallpaper is currently the Stars and Stripes. Nor did I say your country *isn't* the biggest centre of outspoken freedom in the world. Terrorists attacked you because that's what your country is: the biggest symbol of what we all believe in.

What I did say, and I appologise for saying it harshly, was that America is not the only free country on this planet. It must not and cannot face the world alone, for everyone's sake. America is not an island in space. We're all part of the same island in space, and we all need to work together to make it a better one.

Yes, fine, God *bless* America. God bless everyone involved in this terrible, horrifying tragedy.

But we all need to learn a big lesson of unity and international cooperation from it.

Posted by isabel on 1:08:15 9/16/2001 from 152.163.207.181:
i agree with everything you said except the patriotism thing. There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism, you know. Nationalism is the belief that your country is superior to others, in nationalism you celebrate borders between countries. Patriotism isn't that at all. Not in the sense I mean. Is it wrong to feel proud of your country? Is it wrong to love being an American? Is it wrong to be willing to die for your country? Because THAT'S patriotism. Patriotism is the spirit of unity that has swept across America, patriotism is people of all races hugging each other and praying for God to ease them of their pain. There is nothing wrong in any of that, and you know it.

Posted by Nick on 10:54:08 9/16/2001 from 172.189.131.108:
okay, okay, but there's no denying that nationalists are all patriots. I didn't have to bring up the patriotism thing because it's an entirely different topic. I think there should be two words.

It's not wrong to be willing to die for your country's people, and it's not wrong to be willing to die for your beliefs. The latter type of person is the most powerful, dangerous type of person in the world, as these terrorists have shown in the most horrible way possible.

I'm absolutely sure those two things are what you mean by 'dying for one's country' -but to be pedantic, a country in itself, without the people and beliefs, is meaningless and not worth a single life. This is a hard topic to discuss for some reason, because I think people willing to die for *anything* are both without hope, and noble (in a 'live for what you believe in; die fighting for it' sorta way).

I think I agree with you, though. Patriotism is, as a friend put it, more benign than nationalism. To be perfectly honest, I think I should have distinguished between them before I made that comment. So, sorry.

We need a flag for the whole human race, -or at least one that represents the combined beliefs of those who would unite with America- So I can wave it right now.

Posted by Meeks on 19:49:24 9/15/2001 from 198.133.87.106:
What makes America better than the other countires? Because we've got the biggest bombs? I have been *extremely* patriotic in the last few days. I'm proud that we are the country who wants peace, even if we have to go to war to get it. I'm proud that we can join together with other nations for the greater good of all people. I wouldn't mind if there was one nation though, so long as it offered the same freedoms as America. All that separates us from, say, Britain, is the fact that we have a little bit more capitalistic society compared to their more socialistic.

I agree with Nick in the sense that nationalism breeds racism and xenophobia. I could be as happy a Brit as a Yankee because they put the same value on human freedoms. There is absolutely nothing better about the US than any other free thinking country. Yes we are the brightest symbol of freedom, and I'm proud of that.

But if the terrorist think that all they have to do is get through the US, they are *dead* wrong.

Personally it makes me proud to see American, British, French, German, Japanese, Russian, and so many more people from so many different nations stand side by side. There is American policy, and then there's international policy. The latter is *much* stronger.

Posted by randa on 18:41:33 9/16/2001 from 209.69.88.89:
Why do you say that the Palestinians are attacking America? I thought it's Osama bin Laden's gang from Afghanistan. I remember seeing the Palestinians celebrating, but then it was reported that the people celebrating represent a very small portion of the Palestinian community. Even Yassir Arafat was giving blood. I never heard that Muslims feel they need to rule the world and I hope it's not true. Otherwise, it would make a lot of sense why many hate Americans.

Posted by randa on 20:32:01 9/17/2001 from 64.243.212.253:
Isabel, I admire the passion you have for your country.

But consider my perspective on war:
: enlist if you believe in it. if you believe in it so much
: that you are willing to die for it.

Remember, war is also about killing. What scares me the most about war is not my own dying and suffering, it's having the responsibility to kill other people who may not believe in the war that they are fighting. Most people are forced into war, regardless of whether they believe in the cause or not. War is not always the fight for who is right, it is a fight for who is left.

Posted by isabel on 23:09:25 9/17/2001 from 64.12.104.179:
yes. thats true. but no one's forcing any americans to enlist right now, not yet anyways. there's not a draft. but yes, i should have added that, enlist if you're willing to kill other people for your beliefs. WHICH I AM!!!!

Posted by Kate on 21:13:17 9/17/2001 from 24.91.157.13:
That is a really good point Randa, it was exactly what I was thinking. I was trying to figure out what bothered me about what Isabel was saying, I was thinking to myself that there is more to it than just enlisting if you believe in the cause, but I couldn't put my finger on why it was wrong. But you reminded me--it's because many people don't choose to go to war, and civilians are killed in war too, so there's more innocent people dying. One of the reasons I'm so against war is because of the draft--it is discriminating towards men because women aren't drafted. I think that is incredibly wrong, since there are women (such as Isabel) who have more place in an army than some men, yet they aren't drafted. It's also very scary, because I know people who are eligible for the draft, and I don't think that the future of our country is worth losing their lives, because they are so dear to me that if I lost them, then I wouldn't care about the rest of the country because of the pain I'd be in. I know it is essential sometimes, and that's why I also believe that they should do away with war for good. But of course that's impossible, so all I can do is sit back and hope that they don't have to have a draft. I really don't know what'd I'd do without some of those guys...

Posted by Nick on 22:28:05 9/17/2001 from 172.146.79.237:
" It's also very scary, because I know people who are eligible for the draft, and I don't think that the future of our country is worth losing their lives, because they are so dear to me that if I lost them, then I wouldn't care about the rest of the country because of the pain I'd be in. "

Kate, randa- I couldn't agree with either of you more. Isabel, I think the above point is the point I was trying to make. War, and even America, isn't worth anything compared to the lives of your friends, you, and people generally. I say the same for Britain, and every country in the world.

I honestly value my friends above anything I have. Kate, you've also brought up a good equality point. I don't know of *any* western army that allows women to fight on the front lines.

Drafting... is it the same as conscription? (the latter is compulsory; it's forced). Is it? It'd be horrible if it was. Conscription is illegal here.

Posted by isabel on 0:06:00 9/18/2001 from 64.12.104.179:
Do you realize that without the freedoms you enjoy in America and Britain, and most Western civilizations, "the lives of your friends, you, and people in general" would be drastically different? How can you say that America is nothing compared to all of that? I mean, sure, friends are friends forever, but you go live in a country without freedom for a little while, and decide what matter's more, your own personal happiness and security, or liberty. Also, it pisses me off that you seem to place America so low on the scale of what's important. Do you realize how many people DIED so that you could enjoy privilidges like friendship with anyone, religious freedom, PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS? people gave their lives for that! and here you are, so blinded by selfishness, that you seem to have forgotten the most important thing of all...freedom. WHICH IS WHY WE MUST FIGHT THESE TERRORISTS!!!!!!

Posted by Kate on 21:12:40 9/18/2001 from 24.91.157.13:
I think you misunderstood me. I do understand that the country is important. But every decision you (everyone) make is made in your own best interest. Even Mother Theresa, who dedicated her life to helping other people, did it because it made her feel good. If helping others made her sad, she wouldn't do it. Do you know what I mean? Basically I'm saying that I won't be on this planet much longer, so whatever I do should effect me in the best way. It's not selfish, it's human. It hurts to lose someone, I really do know, so don't think I don't. And I do understand that people died so I could be happy. But they did that of their own free will. They chose it, and it made them happy to know that they were dying for a good reason. But to think that people I love may have to die for something they may not believe in breaks my heart. I know it's impossible, but I think fighting should be left to those who choose to do it. But since that can't happen, I think that war in general shouldn't happen. And since THAT can't happen either, all I can say is that it sucks. And that's all I'm really saying. I just feel kinda helpless that I may lose people I love over this. Maybe you don't realize how painful it is to lose someone, I don't really know. (BTW, none of this should be taken personally by anyone. I don't even know who I'm responding to)

Posted by isabel on 21:40:48 9/18/2001 from 152.163.207.181:
trust me, i know. but i'm not sure i agree with you on the whole "people only do what makes them happy" thing. Do you think Jesus enjoyed being nailed to a cross? Do you think Ghandi enjoyed starving himself to make a statement? Believe it or not, sometimes people DO do things unselfishly, not always in their own best interest. Hell, the people who died for our country weren't even doing it in their best interest, they did it for future generations. The people who actually fought in the Rev. war would only enjoy a few years of American freedom before they died anyways. If you live your whole life only doing things that make you happy, trust me, you won't be happy. Actually, i don't know, maybe you'll be the most damn joyous person around, but would you rather have lived joylously and done nothing, or lived a tragic life and died for some great cause? I know which one i'd choose...but that's just me.

Posted by Kate on 1:39:42 9/21/2001 from 24.91.157.13:
No no no no no, you are misunderstanding me again. I didn't mean that people do things selfishly like that. I just mean that, for example, Jesus got nailed to the cross not because it made him "happy" neccessarily, but that what he was doing is what he felt was right for him. In the long run, he knew it'd make him happier than if he didn't do it. He thought that all the people in the world were worth dying for, and saying that something is worth pain like that is the same as saying that you'd rather feel that pain than have the other people feel that pain. What I'm saying is, people don't do what makes them "happy," (because sometimes it's a lose-lose situation, you can't be happy either way, such as in Jesus' case) but they do what they'd rather do. Jesus would rather suffer than see us all suffer. So he did what he'd rather do. Similar to you, Isabel. You'd rather give your life knowing that you are saving your country (an EXTREMELY admirable thing in my opinion) so that is what you will do. You won't sit home, not killing people, when you wish you were. Yet, going to war isn't making you *happy*. Do you get what I mean now?

Posted by Nick on 22:03:46 9/18/2001 from 172.188.127.142:
*grin* isabel, y'know sometimes we agree and it's almost odd when we do...

Ummm... I don't think I meant to attack America.

Last year I took this weird test thing in Philosophy that's designed to make you find the one thing you value in the world above everything else. My result was 'friends' -and that's what I'm happy with. -I'm pretty confident that an opressed society where I could have friends would be better than a free society where I couldn't.

I didn't place America low; I placed it below friends. Directly below. The next one down. At least, what America represents to me: the centre of freedom.

But... this isn't a world where we have to choose: you're right: we *can* have both; our personal scales of importance don't matter.

I'm not arrogant; at least I don't class myself as such. I know people in the past have made huge sacrifices for me- and I hope I haven't insulted that. But...

This is the point I've been trying to get across to anyone who'll listen: War is Hell on Earth. Anyone who signs up for it just doesn't have the full picture. Freedom isn't worth your life. You have the capacity to love; and by throwing yourself into war all you're doing is giving into hate. I'm not being a melodrammatic: that's the truth and that's all it is.

I will also add this: any country that drafts by force is not a free country, and you are deluding yourselves if you think it is.

Posted by isabel on 23:41:35 9/18/2001 from 64.12.101.179:
I agree. draft by force is not freedom. But other than that, America is pretty damn free, you have to admit. And I don't think that you can really proclaim that freedom is NOT worth dying for, until you have lived without it. On the other side, I guess you really can't say it is worth dying for either, unless you've lived without it. I've lived in America my whole life, so I don't really know, but based on things that I've read, and history, it seems like a very special and important thing, and I believe that I would be willing to die for it.