Posted by Tod on 1:24:05 1/1/2002 from 156.40.109.172:
Hey, y'all.

As of December 24, I'd never even heard of HDM. As of December 27, I was finished with the trilogy and vainly fighting the tears, wondering if I will ever meet my Lyra.

So in order to start the year NOT terminally depressed, I've been trying to over-intellectualize the story. I picked up on a few of the influences, but I'm sure there's a lot I missed. So I was curious what everyone else figured out.

So I know it's a rewrite of Paradise Lost, which I tried to read a few years ago, and gave up. Repeatedly.

I know the angels Baruch and Balthamos show up in Paradise Lost, and I'm pretty sure Asriel is Satan, Coulter is God, Will and Lyra are Adam and Eve. Less sure about Coulter. I s'pose God could be God. :-)

Metatron is a real figure in the Kabbalah, the text of Jewish mysticism, where I think that whole branch of the story comes from.

Mary Malone is the serpent, pretty clearly. (Her Shadows tell her to Play the Serpent, after all.) The tree in the mulefa world is the Tree of Knowledge, the fruit is the fruit, etc. But the fact that she's named Mary, and is Catholic, is hard to ignore the obvious double reference.

I know that PP claims he looked to Wm Blake as a major source -- being an English major at an American university, I of course never read Blake. Or Paradise Lost, for that matter. ;-) Other than The Second Coming, I don't know anything he wrote. Any help?

Cittegazza -- Italian, Renaissance ... what does the name translate to?

Additional literary influences are legion. I got Narnia (they start in a wardrobe, they go to the frozen north, there's an evil woman who entices children), and PP himself said he wrote it as a response to the Perelandra Trilogy. And LotR influenced every fantasy novel written since, so it probably affected PP too.

What did you guys think? I don't read much fantasy, so I'm sure there's a lot there I missed.

Sorry to go on so long, but these things interest me. Hope y'all are interested too. Eagerly anticipate all responses.

Tod H.

Posted by Adobe Scribe on 3:47:13 1/1/2002 from 63.15.255.48:
: So in order to start the year NOT terminally depressed, I've
: been trying to over-intellectualize the story. I picked
: up on a few of the influences, but I'm sure there's a lot
: I missed. So I was curious what everyone else figured out

Man, over-intellectualizing is what we do here!

: So I know it's a rewrite of Paradise Lost, which I tried to
: read a few years ago, and gave up. Repeatedly.

Pullman has repeatedly gone on the record to say that it's not really a rewrite, it was just the easiest way to explain what he was trying to do. So, as long as you know the core story, and particularly the argument that Milton's Lucifer is a really sympathetic character (and the suspicions that this raises), I think you're cool as far as Pullman's association with PL goes.

: I know the angels Baruch and Balthamos show up in Paradise
: Lost, and I'm pretty sure Asriel is Satan, Coulter is God,
: Will and Lyra are Adam and Eve. Less sure about Coulter.
: I s'pose God could be God. :-)

I really...need to get around to reading Paradise Lost, don't I? Rats. I follow the Asriel=Satan (though there are some compelling counter-arguments concerning that), but I haven't heard Coulter=God. Explain?

: Metatron is a real figure in the Kabbalah, the text of Jewish
: mysticism, where I think that whole branch of the story
: comes from.

Mmm. I vaguely seem to remember that he pops up in some other stuff, but he's pretty well established in Western literature as "Voice of God".

: Mary Malone is the serpent, pretty clearly. (Her Shadows
: tell her to Play the Serpent, after all.) The tree in the
: mulefa world is the Tree of Knowledge, the fruit is the fruit,
: etc. But the fact that she's named Mary, and is Catholic,
: makes it hard to ignore the obvious double reference.

*grin* Yes, most people pick up on those bits, as long as they know anything about Christianity.

: I know that PP claims he looked to Wm Blake as a major source
: -- being an English major at an American university, I
: of course never read Blake. Or Paradise Lost, for that matter.
: ;-) Other than The Second Coming, I don't know anything
: he wrote. Any help?

I think W. B. Yeats wrote "The Second Coming", actually.

Ah, Blake is important. Blake is really important, and I'll get around to covering him for the site as soon as I'm done with Milton (which hinges on me deciding how much I want to do with PL) - Blake's whole deal, from what I can remember (and my memory is fairly sketchy on this point), is that pleasure and happiness are part of God, and to be miserable in the service of God, or to cause misery in the service of God, is a contradiction. Blake had a problem with Milton, and claimed that he was really "of the Devil's party" because Milton paints such a wonderful and sympathetic portrait of Lucifer, and then tries to half-heartedly exult a rather oppressive God. Blake was of the opinion that God was all about love and happiness and joy, and that anything that brought pain and suffering went against God's plans.

...I could be wrong about this, though, so don't quote me. If His Dark Materials is anything, though, it's Paradise Lost as filtered through William Blake.

: Cittegazza -- Italian, Renaissance ... what does the name
: translate to?

I think that it's "City of the Magpies", but I'd have to run and check to be sure. Yes, though, Italian.

: Additional literary influences are legion. I got Narnia
: (they start in a wardrobe, they go to the frozen north, there's
: an evil woman who entices children), and PP himself said
: he wrote it as a response to the Perelandra Trilogy.
: And LotR influenced every fantasy novel written since, so
: it probably affected PP too.

PP...really doesn't like LotR. He claims that it says nothing about the human condition.

...And I'm sure you're familiar with Pullman's views on Narnia, so no need to go there. ^_^

Random things: For what it's worth, the translator of the Icelandic HDM editions (Anna Heida Palsdottir) e-mailed me and told me that a form of daemons pop up in the Icelandic sagas - they're called "fylgja", and only people with a "sixth sense" can see other people's fylgja. I thought that was interesting, but never got around to researching it.

Ah. This is all of the top of my head, so I'm sure I'm mistaken on some counts. I welcome corrections!

Posted by Tod on 5:15:49 1/1/2002 from 216.32.85.107:
: I really...need to get around to reading Paradise Lost, don't I?

I got through a Bachelor's degree and part of a Master's w/o it. In English Lit. God, I love America. Our motto should be, "Where Laziness is Currency". Or perhaps "Half an Ass is better than None".

: I haven't heard Coulter=God. Explain?

Coulter is universally described as beautiful, yet we never see or feel that she is (because we see her true nature). This seems like a reasonable analogy to the God of PL, in that Milton/Pullman repeatedly perfunctorily uses language to describe the character that directly contradicts how that character appears to act. Coulter also clearly represents the Evil Church at first, but also clearly feels remorse at what she's done/become, and ends up rejecting it for love, both through her child and through her final action. I've read at least one interpretation of PL which suggests that Milton has roughly the same belief about God's true nature -- He gave us free will, knowing that we'd fall, and is perpetually saddened, even angered by us, and perpetually loving at the same time. Like a parent.

I know, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense. But there's something ... tidy? ... about True Eve being the offspring of God and Satan. And the golden monkey keeps gnawing at me ... not literally ... Golden Calf? Idolatry? Doesn't one of the Commandments sometimes get translated as "I am a jealous God. Thou shalt worship none before me"? And doesn't that sound awfully like the General Oblation Board, established by one Marisa Coulter?

Can't figure out any tricks with her name, though ...

: : Metatron is a real figure in the Kabbalah

I kept wondering if Lilith was going to show up anywhere. Like if Will had an old girlfriend or something?

: Mmm. I vaguely seem to remember that he pops up in some other
: stuff, but he's pretty well established in Western literature
: as "Voice of God".

Sounds good. What do you know about the Gnostic rebellion/heresy? I seem to remember that they had a lot of similar ideas on rejecting the totalitarianism of God, but I really don't know.

: *grin* Yes, most people pick up on those bits, as long as
: they know anything about Christianity.

*grin* Yeah, well, given my background, I'm pretty proud of it! Let's say I come down an awful lot closer to John Faa than anyone else in the story ... . And I s'pose it's only pointing out the obvious to use the Lazarus reference and observe that Will and Lyra died and arose anew in Eden to create the perfect vision of humanity and give us a second chance at Bliss.

: I think W. B. Yeats wrote "The Second Coming", actually.

Absolutely correct on the authorship, of course, and I'm sure my British mother would be horrified to even think that she had so miserably failed in my literary education. Or learnin', as the Southern half of my parentage would refer to it.

*mumbles something sotto voce about WB being a very confusing set of initials, runs and hides in corner ... licks wounds ... *

: I think that it's "City of the Magpies", but I'd have to run
: and check to be sure. Yes, though, Italian.

I'll stand by my idea that it represents the Renaissance ideals of scientific inquiry gone horribly awry, although perhaps it's more the Scientific Revolution (300 years ago as opposed to 500). Magpies, huh? Why does that ring a really weird bell ... ? Maybe a magpie flew into it ...

: PP...really doesn't like LotR. He claims that it says not
: hing about the human condition.

Hmmm. That sort of surprises me. I think they actually do say something very similar about the human condition, which is that everything fades, no matter how beautiful. Lyra and Will are nothing but a memory to each other now; Middle Earth is long since lost. The only perpetual existence is in death, and both authors describe it as walking with the stars. Both also have a sense of the wonders of the world, and of great things happening around us, before us, and after us, that we may not be aware of, but which affect us nonetheless.

Not necessarily a very nice interpretation of the human condition, maybe, but human condition all the same.

: they're called "fylgja", and only people with
: a "sixth sense" can see other people's fylgja. I thought
: that was interesting, but never got around to researching it

I s'pose she was referring to the Icelandic national sagas of Egil and Njal? Never read 'em, but I've heard a lot of didacts pontificating that they have affected far greater literary traditions (including Beowulf) than they should for being such a tiny country. I wonder if there's any mythological basis for the panserbjorne.